Healing Horizons: Weekly News & Research - April 11th, 2024
The latest news in trauma-informed care, positive and adverse childhood experiences, and psychological safety hosted by Bri Twombly and Alison Cebulla.
This week Donielle Prince subbed in for Bri Twombly.
Here are the news stories and research we featured:
Regional Nonprofit Hiring Social Workers for $770,000 Initiative to Bring Trauma-Informed Training, Counseling to Prince George’s County Public Schools
“During the grant period, Paths for Families will provide specialized, evidence-based counseling to high school students currently experiencing foster care or living with a guardian or adoptive parent. Monthly support sessions for caregivers will also be offered. Additionally, trauma-informed care training and coaching will be facilitated with staff from all 33 high schools in Prince George’s County. The grant is timely, as the 2022 Community Schools Needs Assessment from Prince George’s County Public Schools revealed that roughly only one-third of students feel they can’t access behavioral health services if they need assistance.”
NORTH CAROLINA ACADEMY FOR STRESS, TRAUMA, AND RESILIENCE (NCA-STAR)
"University of North Carolina, Greensboro offering online certificate courses for k-12 educators and for mental health professionals.”
Twin Cities United Way promotes trauma-sensitive care
https://spokesman-recorder.com/2024/04/04/trauma-sensitive-early-childhood-care-minnesota/
This initiative is a network, collaborative based approach to increasing the addressing of healing, treating, and preventing ACEs in early childhood in their local area.
Adverse childhood experience and young adult's problematic Internet use: The role of hostility and loneliness
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0145213423006129
This is a study published in the Journal of Child Abuse & Neglect, March 2024. “Few studies have explored the relationship between adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) and problematic Internet use (PIU) during young adulthood. Moreover, even fewer studies have explored the roles of loneliness (social and emotional) and hostility in this relationship.”
The Faces of ACEs: Case Studies for Teaching About Adverse Childhood Experiences
https://journals.healio.com/doi/full/10.3928/01484834-20240207-11
“The Faces of ACEs, a teaching strategy developed to present ACEs in a psychiatric nursing course in a baccalaureate nursing program. The Faces of ACEs was created as a senior honors project. Two senior nursing students who had learned about ACEs in their psychiatric nursing course worked together to develop a strategy that would supplement the material learned in class. The students teamed with faculty to develop eight fictional case studies. The fictional patients in the case studies each have a name and an open-source photograph.”
The Link Between Adverse Childhood Experiences and Mental Health in Offenders: A Systematic Review
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/00111287241242478
Journal of Crime & Delinquency, 2024. “The present systematic review aimed to analyze and synthesize the literature, exploring the relationship between adverse childhood experiences and mental health in adult offenders. The analysis of 12 scientific articles included in this study showed findings consistently and followed one another, where ACEs affect the offenders’ mental health and criminal behavior. Results demonstrate that physical abuse, emotional abuse, the death or incarceration of a parent, and physical or sexual abuse are the most frequent ACEs identified by criminal offenders, and ACEs are expected within the offender population (Henry, 2022).”
System justification theory as a foundation for understanding relations among toxic health care workplaces, bullying, and psychological safety
Health Care Management Review, April 2024. Lead investigator is Tracy H. Porter, PhD, is Associate Professor, Department of Management, Monte Ahuja College of Business, Cleveland State University. Toxic work environments and bullying are rampant in health care organizations. The Joint Commission asserted that bullying is a threat to patient safety, and furthermore, it implied that bullying affects clinician psychological safety. However, after decades of trying to reduce bullying, it persists. The purpose of this study was to determine if system justification (SJ) theory can help explain the persistence of bullying in health care organizations. SJ theory posits that people are motivated to justify the systems with which they are embedded, even if those systems are dysfunctional or unfair.”
Daniel Kahneman, renowned psychologist and Nobel prize winner, dies at 90
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/mar/28/daniel-kahneman-death-age-90-psychologist-nobel-prize-winner-bio
“Daniel Kahneman, a psychologist who pioneered theories in behavioural economics that heavily influenced the discipline, and won him a Nobel prize, has died at age 90.”
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Audio Transcript:
Alison Cebulla 0:03
Hello, and welcome to healing horizons where each week, we share the latest news and research on trauma informed care, positive and adverse childhood experiences and psychological safety. I'm Alison Cebulla.
Donielle Prince 0:18
And good morning everyone and wherever you are in the world. I'm Danielle Prince. And I'm just subbing for Bree Trombley. today. I'm an advisor to 10 Collective, and I support 10 Because their team is creating a world where people genuinely care for one another. So we hope that you'll consider hiring 10 to implement trauma informed care and psychological safety based programs and policies to better care for your employees and in turn for the communities you serve.
Alison Cebulla 0:48
Thanks, Danielle. I was trying to figure out how to share it to my personal LinkedIn and then the audio came in so that was what that was. So sorry about that. Still figuring it out, everyone. So today is Thursday, April 11 2024. And yeah, let's get into it. Um, just as a heads up, the stuff that we talk about involves trauma and sometimes violence.
Donielle Prince 1:30
So are we diving
Alison Cebulla 1:31
in? We're diving in. Go for it, Danielle.
Donielle Prince 1:36
Well, one of the first pieces in the area of trauma informed care in Maryland and Prince in Prince George's County Public Schools. There's a nonprofit supporting the hiring of social workers in an initiative to bring trauma informed training and counseling to that school district. So I'll just read the main focus of the initiative. During the grant period pass for paths for families will provide specialized evidence based counseling to high school students currently experiencing foster care, or living with a guardian or adoptive parent, monthly support sessions for caregivers will also be offered. And additionally, trauma informed care training and coaching will be facilitated with staff from all 33 high schools in the county. The grant is timely as a recent needs assessment for the school district revealed that about 1/3 of students feel they can't access behavioral health services if they need assistance. And so I shared all those pieces, because I was just sort of like, wow, as I went through, it's a great sign that they're not just, they're not just looking at the youth themselves, which is critically important. But they're also investing in training the staff and the caregivers, because you need that holistic, if you're going to support youth, you have to support the people who are in regular contact with them and help them become better supporters as well. So what a well thought out initiative is what my initial reaction was to that.
Alison Cebulla 3:18
Yeah, absolutely. Um, although Yeah, it's interesting, like, sometimes the dollar amounts, I'm always like, Oh, it's like, $700,000. That seems like a good amount. But of course, we know, it's, you know, I don't how far is that gonna go? By but you're right. I think it's a what seems like a really wonderful, well rounded initiative. Yeah,
Donielle Prince 3:43
the training part, I guess. You can always use upgrades on your training, but at least when you have the training, now you have the knowledge and kind of the perspective shift, but the ongoing access to the counseling, you know, hopefully they will continue to find sources of funding, because that is it's the I think, as we all know, who are interested in this topic, there's a terrible shortage of workforce problem, and when it comes to accessing mental health services, so that's going to continue to be a problem for a long time, because even as we're trying to work on those workforce issues, they can't be solved immediately. There's a whole training pipeline. So being able to make sure that these youth have access to counselors is great, and I hope they can keep it up to absolutely. And so let's see what's next up. The it's called the North. It's called NCAA star, which is great name, North Carolina Academy for stress, trauma and resilience. And so this is located at the University of North Carolina Greensboro. And this is great to see that a university and I'm sure this has been replicated in other universities as well. But they're offering their own online certificate courses for two groups of youth serving professionals, K through K through 12, educators and mental health professionals. And so you could take either track, and I was just kind of reading about what they're offering. And I'm thinking, it's great that there are more options for professionals in these fields to take a deep dive on understanding stress, trauma and resilience. And this is a, this is especially helpful for non traditional mental health professionals who might not have ever taken coursework and trauma. The way you know, someone, a mental health clinician, with counseling training would have had that as part of their degree program. But if you were entering counts the counseling field by another path, you might not have had the opportunity. So I thought that was a great catch on the part of UNC, and then educators, there's a there's a lot out there now, where schools and school districts can can contract and do whole school whole district trauma informed work. But I think there's also I don't know what the numbers are. But I think there's also just as many schools out there who aren't doing anything. So if you're a K through 12, educator, you can find this resource and start to gather that knowledge on your own. So I think it's great that UNC is making that possible.
Alison Cebulla 6:22
Yeah, and we were saying we we would love to see it be maybe more of like a required curriculum rather than an optional certificate at some point in the future, right?
Donielle Prince 6:32
Well, yeah, I think that's, interestingly, it's, um, it's changing when people go down that traditional path, but where I think it's for, at least for the mental health professionals, but when it comes to the educators, yeah, I would love to see more districts adopt, use some of their resources to create more, there's a lot of different terms, but we could go the term trauma sensitive schools and do it as a whole district, school, whole school approach. And it's, it's so great that there's an individual motivated educator who is going to show up in their school, and maybe even act as a champion for trauma informed education. But it's the commitment level being at the system level, it would be really important. Yeah. And
Alison Cebulla 7:19
Anna, you know, we comment a lot at 10 collective about how every time that you put the onus on the individual to change, like, oh, the educator can learn more and change. This is just not going to be the kind of system so why change that we really need to see. And we're kind of sometimes like adding a an extra load on, you know, for that one person, in this case, an educator. So, love to see these kinds of interventions. But for us, what we're critically thinking about is, but how could the whole system be trauma informed rather than asking kind of the end user to be the one who changes?
Donielle Prince 7:57
Well, yeah, that is a really critical perspective shift. Yeah. So let's see. This is kind of the last item that under trauma informed care that we have for you today. So this one is Twin Cities United Way, that's great United Way, is helping to promote trauma sensitive care. And so this, this is great to see the philanthropy sector engaged in expanding trauma informed practice among their grantees, because that's a really important you know, you bring grantees together, you can really influence change that way. So the Twin Cities United Way has the Greater Twin Cities United Way 80 by three initiative. And so this initiative is convened as a network and it's collaborative based. To help each of the grantees have the training and resources they need to begin to address to think through how to address healing, treating and preventing aces in their local area. And it is specifically focused on early childhood. So grantees whose work focuses around early childhood, so that is, that's great to see that expanding. I think there's a lot of efforts like that around the country now, in every time a new one pops up. That's encouraging.
Alison Cebulla 9:27
And for those who aren't familiar with all of the geographical lingo the Twin Cities are in Minnesota right there's so many like Twin Cities Tri Cities triangle. Um, but yeah, United Way has been doing a lot of work all over in trauma informed care. So that's really exciting because they, it's like they're already set up to do good work. So the fact that they're taking this on, I think is really remarkable. Yeah. So moving on to aces adverse childhood experiences news. There is a study from the Journal of child abuse and neglect that came out March of 2024, adverse childhood experience and young adults problematic internet use the role of hostility and loneliness. This is something I maybe haven't seen a whole lot of conversation about. So I was curious about it. There have not been that many studies that have looked at the relationship between aces and what they're calling in this study, problematic internet use P IU, during young adulthood. And so I was really curious as to what problematic internet use encompassed. And so it is defined as the use of Internet that creates psychological, social, school and or work difficulties in a person's life. It envelops a wide range of activities, including video gaming, social media use web streaming, pornography, viewing and buying. So the study was using data from the Taiwan youth project from 2011 to 2017. And the sample included 1800 85 participants with a median age of 31.3 years. And so what they found looking at this data was the aces. And so again, adverse childhood experiences encompass stressful things that happen in childhood, such as abuse, or neglect, or parents suffering from mental illness or substance use or not being present. And so what they found was that these aces were associated with hostility, and loneliness, emotional and social. And that this was then also associated with this problematic internet use. And so for me, even though this study was looking at a population in Taiwan, and I don't know what their gun policies are in Taiwan, but I haven't seen any school shooting news from Taiwan. But when you take this same idea of problematic internet use, and aces and you look at the US, you're introducing guns in the conversation. And so it made me really, really curious about school shooters, who are often spending a lot of time online researching violence and guns and talking about their plans and online forums. And so I feel like I'm introducing aces into the conversation, when we think about school shootings and School Violence Prevention could be really valuable. So I'd love to see some, some US researchers reference this study and kind of maybe look at some of the violence that we're seeing in the United States that is particularly deadly.
Donielle Prince 12:47
It does seem like a very, I'm noticing that's in the Journal of child abuse and neglect into as I was listening to your description, to make sense to conceptualize, you know, our responsibilities, and the type of adult stakeholder in a child's life, our responsibility to to address connection, and ensure and find ways that whether we're interacting as a caregiver or interacting and, you know, as teachers or other kind of youth serving professionals, that we are focused on creating connection. And this research just kind of highlights it and just both the topic of the research the the connection between hostility and loneliness, and also it's showing up in, in child abuse and neglect journal. I feel like it's really well situated This is taking good care of children is ensuring that they have quality connection. And the study just kind of affirms affirms that
Alison Cebulla 13:57
absolutely, yeah. And all of these studies and pieces that we're referencing will be listed on our website. We have a post for each week that we do this that lists everything that we're referencing, so we encourage you to check it out more in depth. So there's another study here from the Journal of Nursing Education, April 2024. This was a project called the phases of ACEs case studies for teaching about adverse childhood experiences. And so this was developed to present aces in a psychiatric nursing course in a baccalaureate nursing program, and it was created as a senior honors project, so to nursing to senior nursing students who learn about ACEs in their psychiatric nursing course work together to develop a strategy that would supplement the material they were learning in class. So they teamed up with faculty and developed eight fictional case studies. And these fictional patients I'm Like, have a name and a photograph of not, you know, not the actual person. And so then the patient's story is presented. And, um, and so it's just they're describing their childhood and a description of the aces and, and then their adult life and physical and behavioral health outcomes. And then students can be asked to determine an ACE score in the psychiatric nursing course. So students have reported that they have greater empathy for patients they have cared for in the clinical setting, who have a history of childhood trauma. And so they, you know, the students reported that they felt that this was a beneficial discussion. So what this makes me think of as a few things. So one, I have personally worked with training nursing students before, and they really aren't getting aces as part of the curriculum, they're also not really getting soft skills. Like a question that I heard come up a lot is like, we don't know how to have hard conversations, like helping these pupils really hard. Like, these are some really tough things that come up around health life death. And we're not necessarily don't have the skills to do that. So I think it's so wonderful to introduce these kinds of programs, and especially I like that the nursing students themselves came up with it, I always think it's so nice to actually involve the population that you're serving and creating their own interventions. Um, however, I do have some concerns about trying to find out someone's aces score. And I think that's like a really complex issue, because some people will say, Oh, you know, I have nine aces, or I have 10 aces or I have one. But the problem with that original ACEs study is that knowing your score can really only go so far, it really should just be like the first, the very first possible entry point into understanding childhood trauma and toxic stress. But it shouldn't be like the end all be all, because someone may have had the same ace as you. But they may have endured it in a way that was more intense or longer duration over time. And so you can't really compare. It's like comparing apples to oranges of saying, you know, oh, well, these two people have aces score of four, at a population level, the original ACEs study was really beneficial to say, Wow, what we noticed when we looked at, you know, 17,000 people is, is that people who had six or more ACEs, were more likely to prematurely die about 20 years, sooner, on average, which, Alright, that was a huge thing, that part of the original study that showed, but that's, um, that's a huge population to look at. And so between individuals, and I don't think that knowing someone's aces score isn't necessarily that useful on an individual level? What do you think, Daniel?
Donielle Prince 18:08
Well, yeah, I think the literature is moving in the direction that you just described. And I'm recognizing that when it comes to this specific exercise that was being done the faces of aces, it's, you know, it's one training tool in medicine, in the in the health field, in general, is case based learning. And so the idea is, okay, you're preparing people for practice? How do you take the things we're learning in textbooks, and help them start to think about how they're going to apply it, of course, in the medical field, they're going to work in hospitals, they're going to actually, they're going to train they're going to train in the practicum style is that the word I know from counseling is practicing. Yeah, they have their own practice based way of learning. But this is sort of case based learning as a bridge. So. So it's interesting to see that tool, which is usually used to help to help people who are being trained in medicine, understand, start to practice the skill of like, Hmm, what might be what are the symptoms I'm noticing? And what are the solutions that I should propose? So to take aces and put it in that use it as a teaching tool in that manner? I think, I think that I get the idea. And as we're trying to get medical providers to be more involved, and thinking through how the emotional experiences that that patients have are relevant to their health. It makes sense that that's going to show up and case based learning, but um, I think for the reasons that you just shared Allison, it might need a little bit more brainstorming to be more current with what the literature says about like, we wouldn't, we probably wouldn't be, I can't invent the idea, the new kind of case. So I would encourage using cases on kind of these emotional and psychological symptoms that patients have. But maybe it wouldn't be trying to identify their ACE score, but maybe something more like just off the top of my head. Just learning how to ask, like to use your point when they said, We don't know how to have hard. I have hard conversations like that. So maybe the case based learning is about practicing the skill of asking these questions in the empathetic way. And, and feeling more confident so that the outcome of the case based learning would be I feel a lot more confident, asking my patients about, you know, things that might be going on in their lives and seeing that as relevant to my care. So we're not going to reinvent the tool. I think that I think the idea of bringing that into medical training is great, but I don't know, I think I agree with you that I'm not sure actually how helpful identifying a score is ultimately going to be for the purposes of helping them figure out how they're going to use it in their actual practice.
Alison Cebulla 21:09
Absolutely. And then, you know, one thing I keep hearing when we look at aces interventions, such as screening is like, Oh, well, like it's increasing empathy of the care providers, the health care providers toward their patients. And I love the idea of of increasing empathy and compassion, I love that. But it does feel a little invasive, like you shouldn't need to know what trauma happened to someone or what their aces score is, to be able to empathize or to know that they experienced something difficult. And so I would love for ACES and trauma informed education in like nursing and medical medical education to form a foundation of like these things, just assume they happen to someone that you're providing care to. You don't necessarily see it, maybe it could be helpful, but you don't necessarily need to know but you should like know it in general, but maybe, you know, you don't need to know about the individual in your office. Exactly what happened. So the there's another study here in the Journal of Crime and Delinquency 2024. The link between adverse childhood experiences and mental health in offenders a systematic review. And so we love to see systematic reviews, where we're looking at all of the literature, they looked at 12 scientific articles, where aces affect the offender's mental health and criminal behavior. And results demonstrate that physical abuse, emotional abuse, the death or incarceration of a parent, physical or sexual abuse are the most frequent aces identified by criminal offenders. And aces are expected within Oh, that's interesting that says that aces are expected within the offender population. I wonder why. That's such a funny thing to say. Compared. Compared to general populations, more ace experiences and a higher total number of maltreatment are evidenced in individuals who have committed a crime. Studies have revealed that the presence of ACEs differs according to gender and the type of offense. So neglect, verbal and physical abuse and a family member incarceration were significantly more likely to be reported. For men, and in contrast, women often reported more sexual abuse and mental illness in the household. So that's interesting. So I feel that this is such an important conversation to be having about criminal justice, because we do want to think more compassionately, I mean, when I think about criminal justice, in the United States, it's more like criminal injustice. I think the entire system that we've built is part of the kind of capitalist machine that's really taking advantage of people and offering punitive solutions at every turn and trying to incarcerate as many people as possible for profit. So I think it's a huge problem to solve. And it's an it has very cultural roots, in terms of how we think about people and why someone might can and what we and what we even consider to be a crime. But I think that it is really important to be having these conversations about linking toxic stress in childhood with potential, you know, of committing of crimes and incarceration and adulthood, because this eventually will lead to, I hope, less incarceration. What do you think, Daniel?
Donielle Prince 24:57
Well, isn't it Just an article because what it does is it kind of adds to, I guess the knowledge base was a review. So it's adding to analysis and understanding of the mental health status of incarcerated people. And, you know, it's good to have research that kind of backs up these ideas, I think there's been a conversation for a while about how we can see that our disinvestment as a society, in mental, Behavioral and Social Services has is connected to a rise in incarceration, to the point where some writers talk about how I mean, there's a phrase that's often used around the Los Angeles City Jail is the largest mental health hospital in the nation. So so this is out there already that without even using aces idea that your who you have in who we are incarcerated in this country are people who, whose mental health needs aren't being met. And I think an extension of that, and it could be mostly ambulance a and or might be mostly an, but also their social needs aren't being met. So instead of using our funding for social, mental and behavioral health services, we're building prisons and not providing people any of those services. And that is in who ends up being incarcerated. And then ironically, there's that I'm probably gonna forget, it's such a great book, oh, Just Mercy by Bryan Stevenson, where he is talking to one of his clients, and the client actually says, I didn't start getting any help for these problems, I'm having to like got to prison. So that like the way if you want to talk about incarcerated folks, and what it means to prevent, to prevent aces, or the important to preventing ACES is that people are getting actually getting their needs met, and they don't have to go to this carceral institution in order to get their needs met. So that's been a conversation for a while. And so every time, there's a piece of academic evidence that helps contribute to that conversation that's always valuable. So people who are having that conversation and trying to use it to shift policy around incarceration, and policy around increasing access to mental, behavioral and social services. This will be something that could be cited, bolster that conversation. Absolutely.
Alison Cebulla 27:40
Thanks, Danielle. So our last piece that we're going to talk about today is from the Health Care Management Review, and this is in the area of psychological safety. This was published in their April 2024, journal system justification theory as a foundation for understanding relations among toxic healthcare workplaces, bullying, and psychological safety. And of course, this caught my eye because I just feel that there's so much in the news lately about toxic healthcare workplaces. It's just actually a huge, huge epidemic. And so I hadn't heard of this system justification theory before. So, system justification theory posits that people are motivated to justify the systems with which they are embedded, even if those systems are dysfunctional or unfair. Which is interesting. And this, by the way, was done by an investigator at Cleveland State University, and the team found that let's see. So it was a cross sectional survey of health care workers, 302 health care workers. And they were looking at negative relations between instrumental climate and psychological safety. So because of this thing, they're calling system justification. The instrumental climate no longer had a direct negative association with psychological safety. Bullying was found to play a moderating role in the instrumental climate and systems justification relationship, which is very jargony. Yeah. I think so they're saying, I think what they're saying is they found that that systems justification was a part of the toxic workplace environment in the end. And so it's saying some scholars have proposed that a focus on distance Putting workplace contexts that trigger systems justifications in workers could help break patterns of behavior that enable toxic work environments and bullying to persist. And so despite all the jargon, I think what it's really saying is, we have to have a better understanding of the justifications that people use to perpetuate systems that are dysfunctional and toxic. So we have to be able to go in and say, okay, but this bias is already here, you're already going to justify the dysfunction because it already exists. And so we need to know that already and start from that place. Is that kind of what you're thinking, Daniel?
Donielle Prince 30:38
Yeah. And it's an interesting study in approach to trying to understand kind of the specific lever in a, in a workplace that triggers sort of that human behavior of safety seeking. So the human behavior of I'm going to do what it takes to survive, because I need this job, you know, essentially, and, and then finding some evidence that if, if you're able to, you're able to make help people maintain a sense of what's just in not just outside, that's, that's a hard task. And so it'll be interesting to see how this plays out in practice, to get people to think like, you know, right, as you know, right is right, wrong is wrong, outside of their sense of what they need to be safe and get their their needs met at work. And in terms of what work means for their safety and stability outside of work, is really interesting. It seems like it seems promising that interventions could be developed from here. And the other thing that I took from it was, we don't have social policy that protects people from bullying in our, in most states, like we have something around harassment. That's not just sexual harassment in California, but I don't think that's an all states. So. But bullying is a whole other thing. And certainly, unhealthy workplaces. And I think they're, I'm not an expert on this part. But I think there are other countries, I think, in the UK, where there's at least something suggests that something in policy that helps protect people against bullying, and how effective that is, since it's such an intimate, like intimate partner violence, it's such an intimate experience, it's hard to prove. But at least it's there, say there's an institutional. There's, there's an institutional statement against it. And we don't have anything like that in the state. So it's great to see this kind of research because it helps us figure out how to have that conversation.
Alison Cebulla 32:50
Absolutely. The other thing it was making me think of, is that, you know, because I was thinking like, oh, it reminds me of all the heuristics and cognitive biases. And then I remember that this is this was a current event that Daniel Kahneman, who was the one that did all the research on these cognitive biases passed away on March 27 2024. So just a couple of weeks ago at the age of 90, and how much has work enabled us to go, oh, well, that's confirmation bias. So, you know, starting from that place, how can we understand how the brain works more? And so with this systems justification theory, it feels to me like something where we could say, oh, that's like you're doing that thing. You're doing that system justification thing into like an organizational rather than it being like, within the brain? Like, what are the biases and heuristics within a organizational structure? That we could say, oh, well, you're implementing this bias. And then if that could help us make change, you know, quicker in the future.
Donielle Prince 33:56
Yeah. You're not to quote cartoons, but sometimes knowing is half the battle, being able to label the behavior. Exactly.
Alison Cebulla 34:05
It can help a lot. Exactly. Um, so thank you all for tuning in live. And this was our second ever news segment. So thanks for for being here from the beginning and learning along with us, and we will see you next week. Okay,
Donielle Prince 34:24
I'll be in the audience with you next week.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
